greatoldjohn | TLV Inbox

There is the feeling of a wince.

[ But even with what you've seen: like that phrase she wanted me to repeat to Natalie. She was *adamant* I not provide context.

I refused and told her as such at the time, because it's- ]

He needs a moment to figure out what to say, or more precisely, how to convey the idea he's still circling around.

[ A poem is as much it's silences as it is it's words. But she only listens to the words, their immediate and direct meanings in each line, and insists on skipping the silences. That isn't the same poem at all, even if not a single line is changed. All the music is missing. ]

"Literally anything can be made to sound bad when you remove it from context and throw it around haphazard like that," he grunts.

He'll wait out John's thoughtful silence, always curious as to his thoughts.

And then he's silent for a bit longer, because that was a fucking amazing piece of metaphor.

'That's-- first of all, fucking marvellously put, John, that's a brilliant way to think of it. But it's also... something like the opposite, I've found. She reads every line, certainly, but she keeps getting the silences wrong. They undoubtedly exist, but it's more like she doesn't understand the reason for them, what people see when they place in their proper rhythm. So she makes her own silences, her own full rendition of the song with this unique interpretation. It's not wrong, exactly, but she refuses to see or explain how her performance is now unintelligible to those familiar with it."

Edited (mad at repetition) 2022-11-28 07:47 (UTC)

Arthur's point sends him down a rabbit hole, not only because he has no idea how to take praise from his partner in anything less than a swooping feeling in their chest... but because there's something he's just on the edge of catching, something that Arthur's addendum started to make clear not purely through the point itself, but in the difference there is in how he and Arthur address the metaphor.

When it hits, it's like a hammer. The words come out slowly, as if he's walking through the idea as he speaks.

[...how many times have we noted that her method of arguing is similar to mine? Especially how I was at the *beginning* of our association?]

He waits patiently for John's continuation, but he's surprised by the change in his tone, the wariness of knowing something he's not sure he wants to say out loud, because that makes it real.

"I..." The change in tone makes him wary, admittedly, because he's not sure what John's thinking. "Yes, we do make that comparison a lot, don't we? The headstrong refusal to backdown, er- playing up friendliness as a first response and a quick descent into blind fury when that gets pushed against. An inability to empathise with others' states of heightened emotion, where it doesn't suit one's own needs."

That last one's a bit wry. Sorry John but he remembers that first day particularly vividly after the piano.

"W-what are you getting at, exactly?"

He still speaks slowly but not because of anything Arthur said. He's trying to get around it.

[ I *called* you friend... But I didn't even know what that was. Not in practice. And I certainly wasn't looking for a friend at the time.

I was seeking *control*. Because controlling others was the only way I knew to ensure that they didn't hurt me or- or in this case, that you wouldn't send me back. ]

There is a feeling of something cracking open, an idea pushing through. This comes even slower.

[No. That's why you heard the pauses wrong and I didn't hear them at all. Because I remember when-]

He pauses and he sounds so distraught.

[Controlling others... *is* friendship: same word? Completely different understanding of the concept.]

Edited (Phone tags ..) 2022-11-28 08:19 (UTC)

There's a deliberate pause from Arthur. Just because he needs a minute to process the implications of that theory.

After a lengthy pause, he takes a long inhale, and pinches the base of his nose to massage the headache he can feel building behind it, and sighs out all at once, "Ohhhh, Jesus fucking Christ..."

[ Arthur... ]

Sympathy and empathy and the wish to make that headache less painful. He lets it hang in the air for a moment.

[ Oh Arthur...

No wonder Pagan is defensive of her. It's a terrible state to be in. No more pleasant for her than for us.
And incredibly lonely. ]

"Look-- we can't make assumptions. Especially not now, not after that fucking disaster."

He doesn't want them to commit to this idea and have it be wrong and so screw it all up worse because they really did jump to a bullshit conclusion.

"But," he'll concede, running his hand down his face one last time, "based on the presented evidence as we understand it, it... it does hold water, as a fairly- a reasonably sound theory."

[Of course, Arthur.]

But Arthur will know that tone, that feeling from John: he's already feeling terrible amounts of empathy and sadness for her at the very idea.

[What... What do you think we ought to do? Do you think we should share our theory with Pagan?]

"Let's... give it some time. If we throw ourselves back into this entire mess two days later proclaiming how we've solved it, it just seems..." He makes a face, as he tries to think of a decent word. "Competitive, perhaps? It- it reflects poorly on us, since it looks like we've just been obsessing over it."

Which- admittedly, yes, maybe Arthur kind of has, but he has appearances to keep up. He'd like to at least have people think he deserves to be here as a warden.

"The most reasonable option would be to let Pagan approach us to see how we should proceed, we can broach the topic then. If not, then Misty made it very clear she plans on harassing us on day seven. We can make a point to approach Pagan at least a little before then."

Anybody intimating Arthur isn't suited to be a warden here-

Suffice to say, those would be fighting words for John. Including if that person was Arthur. Possibly especially if.

[ I don't mind waiting but I don't want to hold off for him to approach us. He's doing this by himself, after all. He seemed very tired afterwards when I talked with him.

I'm making him some gloves. ]

With a little more energy-

[ I say a couple of days before the deadline. That way we have time to work on a new theory, both Pagan and ourselves, if what we've come up with doesn't fit. ]

The comment about the gloves gets a bright little smile out of Arthur, despite everything.

"That's incredibly thoughtful, John. I'm sure he'll appreciate the gesture."

Pagan seemed the sort, at least.

"But-- yes, let's at least test the theory out somewhat, first. The natural extension of Misty's need for friends, if we read it as a need to control people, is that anyone who refuses to comply with her ideals is immediately a threat to what little control she does have."

[ Because of a desperate need. ]

He wants to make sure that point is made. It's not something he'd ever really stressed but it is something that, in the context of someone else, he feels he can say a little more firmly.

[ It isn't malevolence; not even towards you. Her anger is greater towards you because you're actively withholding what she needs from her, whereas I'm just-

I suppose the best way to put it would be 'doing it wrong'. With the added sting of having you. The two of us having each other: our needs visibly met in that area. ]

"A desperate need," he echoes, but it doesn't make the concept less frustrating to work with.

"When she approached me to discuss Natalie after the two of you were paired, then. Her forthrightness and insistence I regard Natalie as a friend could be read as... as her seeking to integrate me into her sphere of control, using Natalie as a prop to try and get under my defences regarding it. Trying to involve me in her conceptual understanding of a team would make me someone he has a unique form of influence over, which she can use to exploit me further on."

Arthur Lester, ungovernable, takes some issue with that fact.

[ ...and I never thought to warn her against that since, well...

The idea of such an approach has been cast thoroughly aside for me. ]

Arthur Lester, ~~most difficult son of a bitch~~, ungovernable, has become a pretty standardized part of his life by now. But he is going to point out one thing.

[ I think Misty would like a... team. ] He's getting perilously close to sharing things they'd talked about but he feels that treating this as conjecture and not detailing the exact depths of her feelings is a good compromise. It's not as if his own relationship with Arthur wasn't extremely public in turn. [ Perhaps the very existence of such a thing would be... a testament to her ability to control her environment. Proof. Like the scars she mentioned wanting on that post recently. Something tangible.

I can't really think of anything else she'd exploit from you, Arthur. If I'm being perfectly honest. ]

"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy," Arthur intones, dryly. "Just because we can't conceive it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist for her. Certainly it wouldn't need to be rational."

...ah, he's starting to get petty. He takes a breath, and continues more evenly.

"As I said to Miss Quigley before, I am not opposed to working with others. But I can see now how, by phrasing it as 'I do not need to be friends with someone to work with them', she may interpret it as... a personal slight. That I am..." He lifts his hand in a shrug. "Somehow above the need to manipulate people in order to get them to do what I want."

John stays silent at the first, but the second brings to mind more of the discussion from that day in the greenhouse.

[ Yes. She doesn't like to be viewed as 'needing' things. She doesn't like people to see her as vulnerable.]

A short pause.

[ Neither of you do.]

He makes a face. Don't compare him to Misty, ew.

"Yes, because in our case, John, it's going to get me killed." There's a bit of chill to his tone there. "I know exactly who I am and what I d- what I am capable of. And yet I am able to move past my discomfort to seek assistance if I do require it."

He folds his arm across his chest, almost defensively.

"Miss Quigley-- my sum rejection of her attempt at control was nothing less than a threat. By rejecting that you reject her, completely, because her experiences suggests that if she is not able to manipulate someone then they will not tolerate her, something my fury as the conversation escalated only served to confirm further."

Yes, of course, Arthur. It's just fine to compare John to her but heaven fucking forbid-

Moving on. Moving on. He can be the adult here. He's getting better at it.

He makes sure to keep his tone gentle.

[ Which is why you're a warden, Arthur. But we're not the only one who've had... harrowing experiences in life. And right now, she feels threatened by the information in Natalie's file. Information I am privy to.

And given her viewpoint regarding people who are not part of her 'team'...]

Even a month in, it's still a little jarring sometimes when John chooses to be calm and reasonable, when Arthur keeps half-preparing himself to get bit back. But every time that anticipation gets disrupted, it gets easier not to expect it the next time.

He purses his lips, but the moment to process settles the coldness in his tone.

"Because she can't control me, she can't trust me," he finishes tiredly. "Because there is no ability in her to take it on faith that I would respect her wishes."

[ Precisely. ]

John sounds tired as well, but less restrained than he had a moment ago. Arthur settling out is all the positive reinforcement he needs to keep being calm and reasonable.

...it helps that they aren't constantly in terrible peril that has them at odds on how to handle it.

[ Which leaves us at an impasse: to acquiesce to her 'friendship' would remove her fears and make her more willing to be reasonable, but it would also reinforce behaviors and beliefs that are harmful and, no doubt, necessary for her to shed in order to graduate. ]

Beat.

[ ...I also know you won't and frankly, you shouldn't fucking have to anyway. I'm just unsure what other options there are for an immediate relief of tensions. ]

"Yes and no," he says, and there's a slightly wry edge to his tone. "Now that we have at least some indication of where the issues lies, we can act around it accordingly. I've got no issue with being cordial with Miss Quigley, and recognising that her more infuriating behaviours come from such a place make them... not more tolerable, by any means, but it gives us the ability to examine them with her rather than rage against her."

[ You sound more sure of the theory than you did before, ] he notes mildly enough. But there are other things to take into account. More important questions.

[Are you feeling less vexed by the problem, at least? ]

"It's--" Don't call him out like that John. "It's a theory that makes sense, given our understanding, so working within its parameters until we can work on an alternate one that fits better is only reasonable."

But his shoulders do finally lose some of their tension, that he hadn't been aware had been creeping up with his defensiveness. "But... yes. It helps. Having a path through the weeds rather than just getting constantly tangled."

[What do you think of as the path? I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to proceed with her.]

[ He's very much of a mind that if he's going to have to manage her the whole time, he's not sure there's a friendship to salvage. In fact, the more he thinks about it, the more he's trying not to just outright mourn what he thought they had.

Maybe once she'd liked him for himself, but he wonders if it even matters now that he's Natalie's warden. ]

TLV Inbox

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)

(no subject)